2009 Nissan 370Z First Thoughts
Hopefully UPS Doesn't Do This To Your Boxes Too
I Lost $335…PayPal Needs To Fix This For Future Issues
I want to start this post off by saying that I am wrong, the issue of not having myself protected is my fault. What I do want to state though is that PayPal should make this issue that I had more apparent to its customers that receive payments for a product valued over $250.
On July 31st ActiveTuning received an order for an RGB2+ for $325 shipped. This is not a product that we normally stock (we state this on the product page, and also state that it will take about a week before it’s shipped to the customer), so once an order arrives, we place an order with our supplier, who then ships it to us, and we ship it to the customer. We shipped a few days later, within PayPal’s 7 day terms.
Almost 3 months later, on November 28th, I received a notice that the funds were on hold due to a chargeback. PayPal asked for the tracking #, in which I gave to them right that day. The tracking # confirmed delivery of the unit to the customer. Two weeks later on December 12th, I receive an e-mail from PayPal stating that the funds cannot be returned, the customer won the chargeback settlement, sorry….and I’m responsible for the $10 chargeback fee. From my perspective as the business I did everything correct. I received an order and I shipped as soon as possible. I used USPS Priority Mail, as PayPal heavily promotes and integrates into their service. This was not fair to me.
I immediately called PayPal, and after looking into it, they directed me to the third bullet of section 11.7 of their twenty five page user agreement. Under the definiteion of “proof of delivery” it states the following:
Signature Confirmation for transactions that total $ 250 USD or more (see Foreign Currency Equivalents below).
While I did get delivery confirmation on the package, I did not get signature confirmation. Since I did not get this, I automatically lose the chargeback case. Yes, this is in the 25 page user agreement, but sorry PayPal, I can’t memorize or read every single thing. This is a pretty important aspect of seller protection in my opinion, especially on higher priced items (anything over $250). Would it be that difficult to “promote” this term/clause a little better to protect their own customers (the sellers that generate a huge amount of sales in which they make money through transaction fees and monthly service agreements)? A simple obvious note when receiving a payment over $250 for a good that says “hey, don’t forget to add signature confirmation so you don’t get fucked when your customer scams on you”.
That is all.
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Sean Morris
12/18/2008 6:21 pmPaypal sucks. However its so promoted on eBay you have little choice but to use it.
There is no way to arbitrate with their system. There is no one you can call.
I went though this with my fathers online car sales. Paypal locked his account, as they thought the transactions looked odd. Cars are expensive, some people paying for cars in full. There was about $25,000 in charges and money in Paypal when they locked it.
They demanded many things. All of which we produced. Including a business license, copy of the lease of the business. California dealers license. Drivers licenses. Proof of Delivery, etc, etc.
This went on for weeks and weeks. Round and round. I would send them something, they would ask for something else.
In the end, they said we didn’t satisfy them, and locked the account. Said our only choice was to refund the money on the cars, or wait 180 days to get the money back.
Luckily the people we sold to, all sent their money back in other ways. Paypal sucks.
David Pitlyuk
12/18/2008 7:06 pmI have a business account, and when you go into help they provide you with a phone number fairly easily now if you want to call.
I have been in a similar position where they ask for all sorts of stuff, no rhyme or reason behind it, and then deny a claim. Why even ask for the stuff? You’ve given them everything positively.
They are definitely more on the buyers side of protection I think, but so are credit card companies.
chris.pund
12/19/2008 9:51 amDave – sorry to hear that you got burned so bad with PayPal. I’ve had these same requests come through. On everything from an $11 sale to $600 sale on eBay. Each time they wanted confirmation of shipping, delivery confirmation, proof of purchase, the address that the item was shipped to, etc. Luckily I had everything in order and was able to provide it and did not wind up in the same spot that you did. I was pretty upset when they challenged the sale of the PS3 when they first came out. Sold for $600 on eBay and wanted all kinds of crap from me including a copy of my original receipt for it.
Other than these two times, I’ve never had any issues. Been dealing with them for at least 6 years. But I do agree that clauses like the one you got stuck on, should be promoted better so that sellers are aware.
David Pitlyuk
12/19/2008 11:24 am@chris – Yeah I mean I’m not really arguing the fact that I shouldn’t have gotten protection from PayPal. I know why PayPal doesn’t go further. The chargeback happens on the customers credit card, and then at that point it’s the credit card vs. PayPal. I’ll bet the $250+ transaction requires a signed delivery confirmation is a requirement of the credit card company. Basically whatever the credit card company needs, PayPal has to ask its customer.
I’m more concerned with, as you said, better promoting pretty big deal high value terms like this to its customers. I would have easily spent the extra $1.75 or whatever for signature confirmation in order to not lose $335. What if it was something that was $5,000? I guess you’re just SOL.
Sean Morris
12/19/2008 11:38 amI think there is honestly too much consumer protection, and not a thing for the seller.
My whole experience trying to help my father was very frustrating. It made me not trust them at all.
I still use them on my personal account, but I don’t trust them more than any money that I can afford to lose. They are just as likely to take it back off me, as let me have money for a product that I sold legitimately. Its really not a good system. It automatically assumes the seller is the bad guy and can afford to lose, where the buyer is the victim.
Its really not right.
Scot
12/20/2008 2:53 pmMy experience with Paypal has always been an interesting one.
The amount of scammers that use the service ruin it for everyone… But it can be frustrating having funds locked in your account for 6 months.
I would never sell a car and process the payment through Paypal though. Anything more than $1k worries me.
Free Online Store
12/20/2008 5:32 pmPaypal are always after money, there fee’s are ridiculous.
Sean Morris
12/20/2008 5:37 pmAny money they lock on you, thats like a free loan for them. Its easy for them to lock it and hold your money interest free for 180 days.
Caleb
12/23/2008 1:48 pmI have a friend who went through this several times and I couldn’t understand why because I constantly get paypal payments with no problems yet. But then I realized I get payments from mostly digital-type products($7 e-products,etc.) and I suppose they see no need to “hold” funds for this.
This is definitely not a good way for paypal to do business, but like father like son…in this case eBay is the father while Paypal is their adopted son and readers of this blog -as well as mine- are already familiar with problems with eBay.
So what’s the solution: use alertpay,stormpay,e-gold??? It’s a monopoly because sooner or later you’ll need Paypal again…unless all of you guys want to band together and wage an economic war against eBay and their baby???
Leigh
01/13/2009 11:48 pmMost of you mentioned that the buyer gets all of the protection, but a friend of mine is experiencing the opposite. She purchased a pair of Ugg boots on eBay for $180.00. She paid via Paypal and got the boots a short time later. It turns out that they are fakes. The seller said they would refund her money, but only if she shipped the boots back to them first. When she bought the boots, the item location was listed as being in Texas; they want her to ship them back to an address in China.
Paypal has been of no help to her at all. She filed a claim and the only options they are given her are to send the boots back and provide a tracking number or to withdraw/cancel her claim. She has explained the discrepancy with the item location and that she is afraid that she’ll send the boots back and they’ll keep her money anyway, but no one is responding to her e-mails at all.